"peace" edition?

[ShineOn1]

Arnetheduck,

What the hell is this? "peace edition." Gimme a break. You should spend your time on positive stuff, like fixing bugs.

I don't care what you think about the situation in Iraq. I am insulted that you felt it necessary to put a goofy-ass political cartoon as a splash screen on load, and added the "peace edition" banner text.

I dl-ed this version expecting bug fixes, not political bullshit.

Where is your "Saddam, stop killing your own people" edition? Or your "oil for food means you shouldn't divert the food shipments and resell them to other countries for cash while your people starve" edition? Or your "just do what the UN resolution tells you to, dipshit" edition?

Software is not a valid political podium. Pull the commentary and release a clean (no political bullshit) version.

Shine...

[HaArD]

Whether you agree with Arnes politics or not is besides the point.

If you don't like his *FREE* software, don't download it and don't use it.

If you want one that doesn't include the political cartoon feel free to write your own or download the source and re-compile it with the cartoon and banner text of your choice.

HaArD

[ShineOn1]

What a bullshit reply.

The point is - politics and open-source software don't mix.

No matter by whom or how the software is produced, if the premise is "open source" which implies a sense of freedom, there is no place for proselytization. Preach in a church, not in your code.

Can I get assurances that if I were to attempt to reinstall the previous version that the crap would be removed without destroying my configuration? If so, I would gladly "downgrade."

When my trust is betrayed as it has been with this "peace" edition, I am quite leery of the consequences of back-revving. If the BS can be slipped in with this version, how can I be sure that the BS will be removed if I back-rev, or that anything will even function properly after a back-rev?

Like I said, open-source software is not a valid platform for political expression. We'd all be better off if we'd say "fuck this shit" and go to IRQ or something that has no potential for political abuse.

[ivulfusbar]

you should read other threads on the subject before you start a new thread on a subject that is already discussed.

You haven't brought up anything that haven't been said in another thread on the subject.



please-read-the-other-threads-on-the-subject-and-stop-responding-to-this-thread-ly'ers

http://dcplusplus.sourceforge.net/forum ... .php?t=905 if you don't know how to search

[ShineOn1]

The other posts on this subject diverged into an off-topic political argument better suited for a freakin' AOL chat room.

This is directly and to the point voicing my opposition to the use of software as a political platform.

Which other posts have stated that, clearly and consistentl, without divergence into ideological pedantry?

My expression of outrage is specifically targeted at the use of the software to posit a political viewpoint, not at any particular viewpoint. I just want an apolitical, clean and bugfixed DC++, without any extra bullshit.

If you don't like that, maybe you should move to Iraq yourself, and see how well you enjoy your freedom of expression. This is not the appropriate forum for political preaching. This is where (I thought...) we all come together to share.

If not, maybe this isn't as great a refuge of freedom, brotherhood and respect that I thought it was. That would be too sad.

I guess life just sucks, no matter which way you look at it... Honor and trust have no place in today's world, no matter where you look for it or how high you set your hopes...

If I'm wrong, tell me how.

[sarf]

What a bullshit reply.

The point is - politics and open-source software don't mix.

Indeed? Then how can open-source software even exist as it is a statement against closed-source software? Hmmm?

WNo matter by whom or how the software is produced, if the premise is "open source" which implies a sense of freedom, there is no place for proselytization. Preach in a church, not in your code.

No, now you are taking your own views and forcing them on others, something you seem to be against yourself. But then again, making sense is for losers, right?
Open-source basically means that the source code is freely available. It has certain other meanings as well (due to the concept being mixed with GNU, GPL and other TLAs), but it does not mean "do not attempt to make political statements in any way whatsoever".

Can I get assurances that if I were to attempt to reinstall the previous version that the crap would be removed without destroying my configuration? If so, I would gladly "downgrade."

Assurances? What, you want to return your free software for a refund?
AFAIK, there is nothing that will stop you from "downgrading" and since the splash screen is contained within the executable file you should no longer have to witness its horrifying message.

When my trust is betrayed as it has been with this "peace" edition, I am quite leery of the consequences of back-revving. If the BS can be slipped in with this version, how can I be sure that the BS will be removed if I back-rev, or that anything will even function properly after a back-rev?

Your "trust" has been "betrayed"? In what way? Oh, you mean that DC++ should be exactly what you think it should be, and damn what other people may want?
If you are concerned about "BS" being "slipped in", then examine the code, which is freely available (as I already mentioned). This is actually one of the reasons to have open-source, so that people can make sure that they are not getting trojans or virii installed with the program.

Like I said, open-source software is not a valid platform for political expression. We'd all be better off if we'd say "fuck this shit" and go to IRQ or something that has no potential for political abuse.

Well, I disagree - I think software is a very valid platform for political expression, and I dislike the implied "censorship" of software writers who, according to you, should be banned from making political statements in their creative work. What's next, writers of free books should not be allowed to make political statements either because "that BS" does not belong in free stuff, only in things you pay for?

By the by, IRC is a better place to discuss things - the IRQ tends to be populated by lots of messages from your computers periphery components.

Sarf
---
Sure I believe in peace. Peace through superior firepower.

[ivulfusbar]

have you visited any arabic countries? i personly have visited saudi, egypt, dubai, kuwait, jordania and also israel. You get a better understanding about these problems when you have actually been there. For example when your hotel is guarded by man with machine-guns, or when the israeli military blooks your way out of palestina. Or how some arabic countries "use" guest-employees in dubai. How the regime in saudi rules the land etc..

i have nothing against the peace-edition, it has done what is was supposed todo, make people think... there is no right and wrong in wars. And you don't need to use the precompiled version of dc++, you can easily compiler your own version.

if you were given a free newspaper from a guy on the street, would you scream if it was filled with political views? If you watch a movie, do you scream about the fact that the moviemaker wants to put his message across? I mean, why shouldn't software have political messages?

Do you contribute to make dc++ better? do you supply arne with patches that he uses? If you did i could understand your views. And if you feel so strongly about it, why don't you compile your own version, and release it with its src-code (GPL).

ofcourse political messages could be missued in software as in any media, but this hasn't been the case yet.

fix-the-problem-instead-of-screaming-about-it-ly'ers

[GargoyleMT]

The point is - politics and open-source software don't mix.

No matter by whom or how the software is produced, if the premise is "open source" which implies a sense of freedom, there is no place for proselytization. Preach in a church, not in your code.

You haven't been around much, have you? One name proves that all of the above are completely untrue: Richard Stallman. He is highly active in open source, and he is also highly political.



Do you have any bumper stickers on your car? Do you wear any T-shirts with messages on them? If you owned a billboard, would you put up a message about a topic you felt strongly enough about? Part of being a good citizen is political expression. Arne isn't harvesting your email address to send you political spam. He's not making DC++ send anti-gulf-war-mark-2 messages in chat using your nickname. He's showing you a cartoon for two seconds, and puting "Peace" in the title bar of an application that he created on his own time and has provided free for your use. If he was a columnist and wrote a newspaper column to express his opinion, or make you rethink yours, or if he was a painter and painted his house with a similar message, would you really take such exception to it? Dammit, if I felt seriously enough about a given topic, I think I'd be remiss if I didn't use all (reasonable) means at my disposal to present a message to people that made them either aware of the situation, or gave them facts which might change their opinion. None of those would force my opinions down other people's throats. Arne isn't doing that either.

The only bad thing I've seen so far is that some people can't seem to deal with a message that disagrees with what they believe.

[HaArD]

^^^ Well said!! ^^^

[Splicer]

I do believe it is important to hear the views of the users of dc++ so I personally don't have a problem with shineon1's post.

But man you've gotta go on vacation you're about to blow a gasket.

So I say post on, but remember to take a deep breath and state your opinion and try not to take it out on everyone else.

This goes for everyone else too.

If you have so much of a problem with the pic just ask arne to add an option to put your own pic or a check box to remove it completely.

Hell I had to start dc++ 8 times just to read it.

As for fixing stuff he did, its in the update message, though I too would have liked the finished downloads problem, and rollback problem fixed in this version.

But thats how life goes and arne is but one man.(or two I have'nt counted)

So again I say post on but reduce the anger level a little.

[ShineOn1]

if you were given a free newspaper from a guy on the street, would you scream if it was filled with political views? If you watch a movie, do you scream about the fact that the moviemaker wants to put his message across? I mean, why shouldn't software have political messages?

Do you have any bumper stickers on your car? Do you wear any T-shirts with messages on them? If you owned a billboard, would you put up a message about a topic you felt strongly enough about? Part of being a good citizen is political expression. ... If he was a columnist and wrote a newspaper column to express his opinion, or make you rethink yours, or if he was a painter and painted his house with a similar message, would you really take such exception to it?

To all of you that think of software projects as a form of media akin to newspapers, television, radio, film, billboards, bumper stickers and t-shirts, or even the defacing of your own home, you are way off base. That could only be a valid comparison in the narrow software field of gaming. Even streaming media or media playback software can't be equated as you've tried to do. A closer comparison would be to the paper the newspaper is printed on, or the television set or car radio or movie projector and screen. Putting self-expressive ads on the media that "The Media" is presented upon would piss off a lot of people.

You haven't been around much, have you? One name proves that all of the above are completely untrue: Richard Stallman. He is highly active in open source, and he is also highly political.

Are you telling me that Stallman regularly peppers his code with political commentary? Yes, he is active in open source, and yes, he is vocal about it and other political "issues of the day." Does he use open source programs to express political opinions? Or does he express political opinions about Open Source?

Putting useless code in software is rude. It's like the outrageous waste of space and computing time that Microsoft foisted upon us with Excel 97 having an embedded 3D gaming engine with a surreal "landscape" that, upon negotiating it successfully, lands you in front of an obelisk that has scrolling upon its face the names of all the programmers that worked on the project. "Cool" from one perspective, quite inappropriate from another.

The more reasonable place for political commentary is in fora like these, as long as it isn't off-topic from the intent of the discussion thread.

No, now you are taking your own views and forcing them on others, something you seem to be against yourself. But then again, making sense is for losers, right?

As far as me forcing my viewpoint on others by objecting to the use of software as an opinion column - that's an asinine conclusion. It's a logic loop. I guess by your own declaration you aren't a loser, because you make no sense.

I think software is a very valid platform for political expression, and I dislike the implied "censorship" of software writers who, according to you, should be banned from making political statements in their creative work. What's next, writers of free books should not be allowed to make political statements either because "that BS" does not belong in free stuff, only in things you pay for?

It has nothing to do with censorship or free stuff. Do you code? What does it look like, spaghetti? Your thought processes are, like, all over the place. I'd hate to be stuck using your products, or debugging your code.

you don't need to use the precompiled version of dc++, you can easily compiler your own version.

Sure, I can DL the source, chop out the crap code and recompile it. Why should I have to? I'm registered on this site so I can be of assistance to those with the time to work on the project by reporting bugs and shit. I work 14 hours a day and don't have the luxury of puttering with code to see what new and wonderful things I can do with it, so I try to do my part by testing the latest versions. As I'm now reporting bugs and shit...

Dammit, if I felt seriously enough about a given topic, I think I'd be remiss if I didn't use all (reasonable) means at my disposal to present a message to people that made them either aware of the situation, or gave them facts which might change their opinion.

If you've got your head in the sand, or up your ass, you may not be aware of the situation. If that's the case, there isn't any hope of reaching you. (BTW, I'm using the general "you," not the you "you.") furthermore, in this particular "message" there have been no facts presented. Just opinion.

None of those would force my opinions down other people's throats. Arne isn't doing that either

He's not? That's true only if you don't want the latest version or you want to download the source and "debug" stuff that has nothing to do with the project in the first place.

A few last items as "food for thought:"

Are the people of Afghanistan better off than they were a year ago? Would the Iraqi people be better off without Saddam the butcher, who gets kicks from watching videos of his own people being tortured?
If we continue to "appease" and "contain" a sadistic dictatorship, will there not be more Iraqi people tortured and killed by Saddam and his cohort? (not, by the way, US propaganda - this is what former Iraqi citizens that were able to flee have said has happened and will continue if Saddam remains in power.)
Would not the Saudi, Irani, Kuwaiti, Jordanian and Egyptian people be better off in less oppressive environments, with freedom of expression and self-determination?
Would not the United Nations have a more valid role in world affairs if it would enforce its own declarations?
Isn't the current situation much like that which prevailed when the League of Nations made itself irrelevant when it refused to act?
How many resolutions does Saddam have to be in material breach of before the UN considers it actionable? Isn't it already like 17 or 18 and counting?
If the UN were to assert its authority, and by doing so aver its relevancy, would it not be more likely that a resolution of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict would be on the horizon? That diplomatic means might actually have positive results, in Palestine/Israel and elsewhere?

Answer those questions honestly, and then move on. This has become ridiculous. I can't help wondering how many more people will be moved to think by reading this thread, than those moved to think by the "peace" edition of DC++. Freedom of expression is cool. I support it 100%. I disagree with the venue Arne chose. Case closed, 'nuff said.

But if you have honestly considered the above questions, then what's your point? How can anyone defend the indefensible? Are you in favor of torture and murder? You must be if you want Saddam to remain in power...

See how easily one's words can be twisted against them?

Peace is relative... the conundrum is how to get there from here.

What is the "right" way or "wrong" way? It was said in a prior post in this thread, there is no "right" and "wrong" in war. That is a truism, not a fact.

The bottom line is: what is the worse sin? Committing an act of violence to stop a worse violence, or standing idly by in the name of "peace" while said worse violence continues?

Sins of commission and sins of omission. Do the ends justify the means? What are the results of inaction? Is there a spiritual balance sheet? Can it be broken down to numbers and run through an algorithm to give the "right" answer?

Is it all based on "gut feel" or "divine guidance" or "logic" or "political science" or "political correctness" or "political affiliation?" Who are you to decide? Who am I to decide? Who are they to decide? What gives (you/me/them) the right to decide for (you/me/them)?

All valid questions. Do you have the answers?

If you do, what gives you the right to determine that your answers are correct? What gives me the right to question your judgment? Why should we care what they think?

it's all fine-and-dandy to want to hold hands in a circle and sing "Kum-Ba-Ya," and fantasize about John Lennon's "Brotherhood of Man." Back to reality.

Neville Chamberlain, in "dealing" with Adolf Hitler, declared "Peace in our time." Yah, right. In the "real" world, there are evil people that need to be dealt with, with force if necessary.

The bottom line is - "Do you have the balls to use force when it becomes necessary?" and "Do you have the brains to recognize when it is necessary?" The answers have been mixed, and are full of political rhetoric. It's become a chess game, with most of us cast as pawns. It's plainly more about "what can I get from this" than "what good can I do for others."

The French have a big oil stake in this situation - a major oil source for France is Iraq. That's why they promote the status quo - selfish reasons. They don't want to cut off their cheapest oil supply. Same goes for Russia - they've been dealing with Iraq for oil as well. If anyone wants to say this is all about oil, then yes it is - but on the part of those that oppose the regime change in Iraq that will benefit all the peoples of Iraq, because they won't have their "oil for food" trade agreements with Saddam any more, and they'll have to spend more for oil from the Saudis or Kuwaitis or the free peoples of Iraq than they do now by "trading" food to Saddam for oil (which food gets resold to neighboring countries for more cash in Saddam's pockets, instead of feeding the Iraqi people as intended - by UN resolution...)

Enough political ranting. At least this was done in a discussion forum and not as irrelevant code in a software project.

"Peace."

[Paul_Don]

there was clearly no point in the peace edition apart from a different colored icon which i found quite nice

[Splicer]

HEY ARNE MAKE THE NEXT ONE SHINY, I LIKE SHINY THINGS

[yilard]

Comparison with paper, radios, billboards is misguided. Software is not a manufactured product, it is unique creation. And if particular radio comes with ads, you can simply buy another brand.

Say anything you want, but it is right of developer to express his opinion in his product. Just as it is right of an artist to express her opinion in her artwork. If you don't like it, don't use it.

[GargoyleMT]

there was clearly no point in the peace edition apart from a different colored icon which i found quite nice

The different colored icon? The finished download toolbar icon? Or the 48x48 DC Icon? Well, I have a vested interest in both of 'em.

Comparison with paper, radios, billboards is misguided. Software is not a manufactured product, it is unique creation. And if particular radio comes with ads, you can simply buy another brand.

Ditto. Programming is a creative task. Source code is an expression of the programmer behind it.

ShineOn, you make some good points, but the only one I cared about, that Arne has the right to put anything into his program that he feels necessary, even a cartoon that might pull people's heads out of the sand/their asses, and perhaps that being a good citizen requires him to do so and stand up for his beliefs, has pretty much been ignored. The rest of your post is largely a political discussion/argument, which almost never have good resolutions.

Remember, Arne is doing this on his own time, not for a company. Nobody is paying him to put self-serving easter eggs into the code (ala. Microsoft Excel). There's no ethical issues about misuse of company time, money, or resources creating this "feature."

[sarf]

[snip quotes]
To all of you that think of software projects as a form of media akin to newspapers, television, radio, film, billboards, bumper stickers and t-shirts, or even the defacing of your own home, you are way off base. That could only be a valid comparison in the narrow software field of gaming. Even streaming media or media playback software can't be equated as you've tried to do. A closer comparison would be to the paper the newspaper is printed on, or the television set or car radio or movie projector and screen. Putting self-expressive ads on the media that "The Media" is presented upon would piss off a lot of people.

You have failed to give any reasons what so ever as to why a software program is a not a creation equal to, say, a painting or a piece of text such as an article. While I like seeing people expressing their opinions, I can't comment on them other than to say, "well, we have a difference of opinion". A question I'd like to know the answer to is why games might be different from a word processor, or a file sharing tool in your opinion?

By the by, I do consider a software program (the code itself, I mean) as something equal in value to a painting, an article and the design of a car, as it requires transpiration and inspiration just as any other thing worth doing.

[snip questions about Stallman]
Putting useless code in software is rude. It's like the outrageous waste of space and computing time that Microsoft foisted upon us with Excel 97 having an embedded 3D gaming engine with a surreal "landscape" that, upon negotiating it successfully, lands you in front of an obelisk that has scrolling upon its face the names of all the programmers that worked on the project. "Cool" from one perspective, quite inappropriate from another.

... and? You would have it removed just because you find it... "rude" to have code that is "useless" ?

The more reasonable place for political commentary is in fora like these, as long as it isn't off-topic from the intent of the discussion thread.

Maybe, but who is to say what is reasonable? You? The Pope? A man from Texas? The Church of Eris?

[snip self quoted]
As far as me forcing my viewpoint on others by objecting to the use of software as an opinion column - that's an asinine conclusion. It's a logic loop. I guess by your own declaration you aren't a loser, because you make no sense.

Ehm... you'd like to ban the Peace-cartoon, right? And that would result in you having your viewpoint forced on others, right?

Besides, I dislike making sense, there's too much of it in the world as it is.

It has nothing to do with censorship or free stuff. Do you code? What does it look like, spaghetti? Your thought processes are, like, all over the place. I'd hate to be stuck using your products, or debugging your code.

Oh look, an attack on me personally! Whee-ha!
Do I code? Yes. Does it look like spaghetti? No, it looks like someone has bombed arnes code and made lots of alterations everywhere.
If it hasn't got anything to do with censorship or free stuff, then, for the love of Eris Herself, what has it got to do with? The way I code? I would hope not, but it seems that to you it does. Oh, well.

[snip quote]
Sure, I can DL the source, chop out the crap code and recompile it. Why should I have to? I'm registered on this site so I can be of assistance to those with the time to work on the project by reporting bugs and shit. I work 14 hours a day and don't have the luxury of puttering with code to see what new and wonderful things I can do with it, so I try to do my part by testing the latest versions. As I'm now reporting bugs and shit...

You are reporting your own opinions. This is not a bug. I repeat, this is not a bug. It is (<snicker>) a feature (well, kinda).

[snip quote]
If you've got your head in the sand, or up your ass, you may not be aware of the situation. If that's the case, there isn't any hope of reaching you. (BTW, I'm using the general "you," not the you "you.") furthermore, in this particular "message" there have been no facts presented. Just opinion..

Bwahahahahahahahah! And we certainly would not like any opinions presented, now would we?

[snippety snip]
He's not? That's true only if you don't want the latest version or you want to download the source and "debug" stuff that has nothing to do with the project in the first place.

Ehm... he's "forced" you to watch a splash screen with a cartoon that is funny according to some, true to others and false, baseless, evil and Communistic to unspecified other people.
He is not forcing you to write letters to people that claims that George Bush is Satan Mekratrig Himself, summoned to Earth to make the American public into hideous gluttons that feed on other people's miseries, tramples the rest of the world under their bloated feet and who now worship a pale, dead God whose son was so miserable as to die on Earth despite being omnipotent.
And we're damned lucky arne does not. Imagine what "they" would do to us!

A few last items as "food for thought:"

Yay! The end of the message!

Are the people of Afghanistan better off than they were a year ago? Would the Iraqi people be better off without Saddam the butcher, who gets kicks from watching videos of his own people being tortured?

Hey, what are you, some kind of voyeur?

If we continue to "appease" and "contain" a sadistic dictatorship, will there not be more Iraqi people tortured and killed by Saddam and his cohort? (not, by the way, US propaganda - this is what former Iraqi citizens that were able to flee have said has happened and will continue if Saddam remains in power.)

How do we know? He might convert to Buddhism tomorrow and start his journey towards Nirvana!

Damned unlikely, though.

Would not the Saudi, Irani, Kuwaiti, Jordanian and Egyptian people be better off in less oppressive environments, with freedom of expression and self-determination?

Probably not, they are not as evolved as we true-blooded Aryans are. (NOTE: this was a joke, for those interested)

Would not the United Nations have a more valid role in world affairs if it would enforce its own declarations?

Yes! Let UN bomb Iraq with NBC weapons! Let's make Saddam PAY!

Isn't the current situation much like that which prevailed when the League of Nations made itself irrelevant when it refused to act?

Yes, it is, and I'm hoping to see another World War from which Sweden will leave as unscathed as we were from the Second World War.

How many resolutions does Saddam have to be in material breach of before the UN considers it actionable? Isn't it already like 17 or 18 and counting?

Well, let's see if he can beat a hundred, eh?

If the UN were to assert its authority, and by doing so aver its relevancy, would it not be more likely that a resolution of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict would be on the horizon? That diplomatic means might actually have positive results, in Palestine/Israel and elsewhere?

I hope UN grows big, hairy balls and invokes its authority to obliterate all nations that are in breach of any UN resolution, as well as make a new one that makes heeding the Kyoto-protocols mandatory lest the nation that does not heed them be obliterated by the Iron Heel of the UN.

Answer those questions honestly, and then move on. This has become ridiculous. I can't help wondering how many more people will be moved to think by reading this thread, than those moved to think by the "peace" edition of DC++. Freedom of expression is cool. I support it 100%. I disagree with the venue Arne chose. Case closed, 'nuff said.

Apparently not. I do hope you realize that starting a thread does not imply any powers over it other than the power of screaming "This is not what I intended!" intermittently.

But if you have honestly considered the above questions, then what's your point? How can anyone defend the indefensible? Are you in favor of torture and murder? You must be if you want Saddam to remain in power...

Really? Why? Yet another unfounded opinion, based on nothing more substantial than that you said 'tis so.

See how easily one's words can be twisted against them?

Yep.

Peace is relative... the conundrum is how to get there from here.

Peace is absolute and can never be attained by human beings without the beings attaining it ceasing to be human. Hah!

The question is how to get closer to peace, not how to get to peace.

What is the "right" way or "wrong" way? It was said in a prior post in this thread, there is no "right" and "wrong" in war. That is a truism, not a fact.

Neither. There's always a better way that a historian will find one hundred years into the future (or less).

The bottom line is: what is the worse sin? Committing an act of violence to stop a worse violence, or standing idly by in the name of "peace" while said worse violence continues?

Well, "Thou shalt not sin, y00 n00b" is almost a commandment, isn't it?

Sins of commission and sins of omission. Do the ends justify the means?

They do to me, baby, they do to me.

What are the results of inaction?

That actions taken later on will have to use more force and harm more than an action done at the previous time would have, if the correct action were to be taken, that is.

Is there a spiritual balance sheet?

Yep, but be warned, the Goddess does not use Excel.

Can it be broken down to numbers and run through an algorithm to give the "right" answer?

No. But it would be cool to try.

Is it all based on "gut feel" or "divine guidance" or "logic" or "political science" or "political correctness" or "political affiliation?"

I'd call it "gut feel", but then I'd get a lightning bolt up my arse, so I'll go with "divine guidance".

Who are you to decide?

I am that which I am.

Who am I to decide?

A contributing tester of DC++ whom works fourteen hours per day.

Who are they to decide?

They are the Illuminatus, born and bred to rule this Earth for all time and all possible universes.

What gives (you/me/them) the right to decide for (you/me/them)?

The right of Power. Power of Matter, Mind and Spirit.

All valid questions. Do you have the answers?

Sure do, for just $4,99, too!

If you do, what gives you the right to determine that your answers are correct?

Because Goddess told me so.

What gives me the right to question your judgment? Why should we care what they think?

Nothing, and we should not.

it's all fine-and-dandy to want to hold hands in a circle and sing "Kum-Ba-Ya," and fantasize about John Lennon's "Brotherhood of Man." Back to reality.

<BZZT> "MUST... DESTROY... MANKIND... <BEEP> Oops! Time for lunch."

Neville Chamberlain, in "dealing" with Adolf Hitler, declared "Peace in our time." Yah, right. In the "real" world, there are evil people that need to be dealt with, with force if necessary.

Yep. And I sure can tell them evul ones from 'em good ones, I sure can.

The bottom line is - "Do you have the balls to use force when it becomes necessary?" and "Do you have the brains to recognize when it is necessary?"

I do, and I hope that I do.

The answers have been mixed, and are full of political rhetoric. It's become a chess game, with most of us cast as pawns. It's plainly more about "what can I get from this" than "what good can I do for others."

Sure is, and currently, I don't get much from a war in Iraq. Throw in a few mill for me and I'm game, though.

The French have a big oil stake in this situation - a major oil source for France is Iraq. That's why they promote the status quo - selfish reasons. They don't want to cut off their cheapest oil supply. Same goes for Russia - they've been dealing with Iraq for oil as well. If anyone wants to say this is all about oil, then yes it is - but on the part of those that oppose the regime change in Iraq that will benefit all the peoples of Iraq, because they won't have their "oil for food" trade agreements with Saddam any more, and they'll have to spend more for oil from the Saudis or Kuwaitis or the free peoples of Iraq than they do now by "trading" food to Saddam for oil (which food gets resold to neighboring countries for more cash in Saddam's pockets, instead of feeding the Iraqi people as intended - by UN resolution...)

Ahh... but the French say it's all because USA and Britain would bring in their own companies to "manage" the oil resources "properly". Both sides can sling mud at the other party, because currently we (or at least I) do not know if zero, one or more parties are correct.

Enough political ranting. At least this was done in a discussion forum and not as irrelevant code in a software project.{/quote]
What?! Just kidding.

I am merely asking whom you are to judge code to be irrelevant - not just for you but for the creator of the code.

"Peace."

In our time. The peace of the battlefield, the peace of the grave, or the peace of extinction. Either is good for me.

Sarf
---
I like winter. I like the cold. I like the sound of flowers dying.

[Negedrazzil]

Hey dude, if you don't want the software, then don't friggin download it. He's giving his work away for free and you're bitching about how he presents it. Well, get a clue. He can do whatever he wants with HIS software, and if you don't like it, go jump in a lake. You have no place here.

Jw

[Waywardwishes]

Arnetheduck,

What the hell is this? "peace edition." Gimme a break. You should spend your time on positive stuff, like fixing bugs.

I don't care what you think about the situation in Iraq. I am insulted that you felt it necessary to put a goofy-ass political cartoon as a splash screen on load, and added the "peace edition" banner text.

I dl-ed this version expecting bug fixes, not political bullshit.

Where is your "Saddam, stop killing your own people" edition? Or your "oil for food means you shouldn't divert the food shipments and resell them to other countries for cash while your people starve" edition? Or your "just do what the UN resolution tells you to, dipshit" edition?

Software is not a valid political podium. Pull the commentary and release a clean (no political bullshit) version.

Shine...

Now flame me if i'm wrong but aren't you being a total hypocrite, your not in any way upset with the fact that there are political views in this software, but actually you are upset that these views conflict with your own political views- if this version had an american flag proudly waving in the loading screen, or was as you call it a 'Sadaam stop killing your own people edition' (off the beaten track your an idiot because saddaam's killing his own people with the express help of the US and UK vetoed sanctions against iraq, and before the sanctions Iraq was one of the healthiest and most well fed developing nations in the world) you wouldn't complain at all, sure at first i was a bit queesy over the implications of software and politics being meshed together in such an outright way, but then i came to the conclusion that firstly free quality software is a political statement in and of itself- and it's not an 'american' or 'capitalistic' statement at that, this is the product of the creator and he has the right to use it to his own purpose, whether that be to install adware, bitch and moan about his girlfriend, or convey his political opinions to an extroadinarily large amount of people around the world - and we have the right to disagree with him, not download his program even flame him on his own forum, but screw us if we think that we have the right as people who are benefitting from the generosity of anothers hard and (comparitively) thankless labours to deny them their right to to make THEIR program do and say what they want it to do.

[Batch]

A few last items as "food for thought:"

Are the people of Afghanistan better off than they were a year ago? Would the Iraqi people be better off without Saddam the butcher, who gets kicks from watching videos of his own people being tortured?

Yes. But would the world be better of without George Bush. Also probably yes. I swear he is stupid enough to invade Germany under the guise of looking for Pretzels of Mass Distruction.

Maybe Bush will sort out Korea, Pakistan/India, Israel, Zimbadwe, etc, etc. Thought not.

Troll Troll Troll.

Seriously though, if a software developer wants to make a statement that you don't like, don't use the software. Oh, that was simple. Would you sit through a TV programme that supported Saddam's regime then complain about afterwards, or would you change the channel? You have a choice.

I agree though that time is better spent fixing the damn Windows bug that means the task doesn't end when DC++ is shut down. I mean the US army are going in whether they have the support of the people of the world or not.

[Spykie]

ShineOn1
-don't like it , don't use it (go nmdc)
-don't like it, it's free! bugger off!
-don't like it, make something yourself (yaya blabla you work 14 hours a day, so? (still 10 hours left)

Further more I see your point taken that you don't like arne to take side of the people wanting peace caus you wan't to bomb the hell outta iraq 'n stuff.. well feck that... If saddam should go then it's the region and the country itself and maybe even the UN that have the right and ability to remvoe him from his seat, not the us and no other country on it's own has that right to do so!

//Spykie's 2 cents

[Snooze]

no matter how you look at it, yilard is right! And i see no reason to keep bitching about it !

[bluemiles]

Here's the really ironic thing. Over in the East you have an unpredictable madman who is nuclear capable has ICBM's and can destabilize an entire region, kill who knows how many people and in a global economy, well you get the picture. He shot a missile over Japan into the ocean, he's starving his own people, and is militarily mobilized. So the irony here is that the US is trying diplomacy in the case of North Korea and meanwhile, have deployed almost 200,000 troops to the middle east where the whole world is watching, in a country that is nowhere near as dangerous as North Korea (you keep on believing the BS that the US and the UK are selling).
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/ ... 7096.shtml for example.

Simply put, Iraq is the little guy who can be picked on, N.Korea is mobilized and the US can't push it around so easily.

The idea that you can simply establish a democracy and have it spread like the wind is ridiculous and naive. Most people don't even understand the region, the inherent problems and it's history yet think they can magically establish a democracy like a plant with a little bit of miracle gro, man have I got a bridge to sell you. You know what blowback is? Americans seem to think they live outside of the world.

As for Saddam crushing his own people, well Sanctions have killed many many Iraqi's especially children but I suppose it's a one way street when it needs to be.

Oh yeah, what happened to Osama? You won't hear the administration even mention his name meanwhile a videotape shows up and the whole country goes to an orange level security threat.

I support the right of the developer to speak his/her mind. It's bad enough dissent is being stifled and suppressed in the US and the media is just a mouthpiece for the administration.

[Opera]

I'm sorry, maybe I need to put on my glasses cause I can't see the problem with arne making a peace version!? And why do you really even talk about how Saddam rules his country?
Many people think that what might be the reason for eventual war is to get rid of saddam and for the states to kind of state their own "democracy", but that is very very wrong.
The UN has said that some kind of (not at all war) armed forces (hopefully neutral but that won't be the case probably.. as usual) might have to enter Iraq to destroy the nuclear and/or biological weapons if (and only if) there is clear that they have such.
(Note that ironically the USA have had nuclear weapons for a long time, and they do not want to disarm, because it "costs" too much, but they can force others to pay that check lol)
The question of getting rid of their leader or even mention things like that is more than absurde. No country has the right to do that in any case whatsoever, and if the UN would ever come up with such a resolution the UN would that day no longer exist per definition since it means they're breaking their own rules.

So the only thing an eventual war would depend on is the situation were Saddam might have (haven't seen much proof yet though) nuclear/biological weapons. This is the inspectors job to lookup. Hans Blix has tried to make the UN understand the need in putting money to this work for 8 years but hasn't found much interrest from the rest of the security council. Suddenly the topic is extremely important...
I understand though that Bush wants war when he's put so much money to the military instead of to social needs. Maybe he think himself worthy of some kind of profits to that cost now.

If this isn't worth thinking about, if you think peace isn't an alternative to everything, then I see you're just afraid Arne will turn some of the war-positive fellas into more thinking individuals.

But whatever BS you think Arne is implementing, I bet he doesn't give a S, since it's his program, and since you can remove that logo soooo easily, and since there actually is one thing that doesn't belong to the computer society - censorship. Bet you didn't think of that. Or, you're just afraid..

Wars never decide who's right, only who's left

Opera

[Pycckuu]

Arnetheduck,

What the hell is this? "peace edition." Gimme a break. You should spend your time on positive stuff, like fixing bugs.

I don't care what you think about the situation in Iraq. I am insulted that you felt it necessary to put a goofy-ass political cartoon as a splash screen on load, and added the "peace edition" banner text.

I dl-ed this version expecting bug fixes, not political bullshit.

Where is your "Saddam, stop killing your own people" edition? Or your "oil for food means you shouldn't divert the food shipments and resell them to other countries for cash while your people starve" edition? Or your "just do what the UN resolution tells you to, dipshit" edition?

Software is not a valid political podium. Pull the commentary and release a clean (no political bullshit) version.

Shine...

PEACE IS always POSITIVE!

[volkris]

The UN has said that some kind of (not at all war) armed forces (hopefully neutral but that won't be the case probably.. as usual) might have to enter Iraq to destroy the nuclear and/or biological weapons if (and only if) there is clear that they have such.

The UN has said no such thing.

(Note that ironically the USA have had nuclear weapons for a long time, and they do not want to disarm, because it "costs" too much, but they can force others to pay that check lol)

Others have agreed to it. LOL.

This is the inspectors job to lookup.

No it's not. The job of the inspectors is to verify specific claims of Iraqis. Go reread their UN mandates.

I understand though that Bush wants war when he's put so much money to the military instead of to social needs. Maybe he think himself worthy of some kind of profits to that cost now.

Oh yeah, this makes a ton of sense.

Please go educate yourself through direct sources instead of the uninformed propaganda you've obviously been reading.

[ShineOn1]

So the only thing an eventual war would depend on is the situation were Saddam might have (haven't seen much proof yet though) nuclear/biological weapons. This is the inspectors job to lookup. Opera

That's the French BS line. The UN resolution gives the inspectors the job of verifying whether the disclosure of disarmament is accurate. The burden of proof of whether Saddam has destroyed his weapons was placed on Saddam. He produced a massive tome of bullshit, that has been proven wrong by the inspectors on several occasions. There still is no accounting of the massive quantities of Anthrax, Botulin toxin, Serin, VX and mustard gas that the inspectors documented several years ago.

You'll all believe whatever you want regardless of the facts, so I don't even know why I'm responding, other than that I hate leaving factual error unresponded to.

[ShineOn1]

So the irony here is that the US is trying diplomacy in the case of North Korea and meanwhile, have deployed almost 200,000 troops to the middle east where the whole world is watching, in a country that is nowhere near as dangerous as North Korea (you keep on believing the BS that the US and the UK are selling).
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/ ... 7096.shtml for example.

Simply put, Iraq is the little guy who can be picked on, N.Korea is mobilized and the US can't push it around so easily.

Simply put, Iraq has the madman, with documented evidence of large quantities of biological and chemical weapons, that has used them on his neighbors and his own people, that enjoys torture as entertainment and has proven he won't let anything as insignificant as morality stop him, while N. Korea has a madman, potentially in possession of nuclear fissionables with the potential of creating nuclear weapons, that has a number of powerful neighboring countries with a vested interest in what transpires (like China), has gotten where they are through appeasment policies, and hasn't had 17 UN resolutions and counting that he's violated. So yes, the appropriate action in N. Korea at this time is diplomacy.

As for Saddam crushing his own people, well Sanctions have killed many many Iraqi's especially children but I suppose it's a one way street when it needs to be.

The U.N. sanctions have not killed anyone. Saddam's regime is entirely responsible for the Iraqi people's suffering. Not my opinion, but the testimony of former Iraqis. (who, by the way, would love to go back, if they could be free of Saddam and his republican guard...)

Oh yeah, what happened to Osama? You won't hear the administration even mention his name meanwhile a videotape shows up and the whole country goes to an orange level security threat.

Why should the administration keep talking about Osama? We can "walk and chew gum at the same time." It's well known who Osama is and that he is being pursued, along with the rest of Al-Qaida. The threat of Saddam and his chemical and biological weapons does not go away if all we do is talk about Osama... Yeesh.

I support the right of the developer to speak his/her mind. It's bad enough dissent is being stifled and suppressed in the US and the media is just a mouthpiece for the administration.

Hahahahahahahaha! Bwhaahahahahahaha! Heeheehee <gasp> hee.

The right of a developer (or anyone else) to speak his/her mind was never in question, to me. It was the medium that I complained about. So what?

The very idea that dissent is being stifled (hehe) and suppressed (snort) in the US is laughable. Especially justaposed against the verified fact that Saddam has had mothers shot in front of their families for not proclaiming their love for Saddam.

And to even suggest that the left-wing media in the US is a mouthpiece for this administration - what are you smoking, and where can I get some? I suppose you think that Marty Sheen and Barbra Streisand are out preaching to the world that the Bush administration is right, and should be supported in all ways, especially as regards Iraq? Well, Peter Jennings, Ted Koppell, Dan Rather, Matt Lauer, Katie Couric, Stephanopolous, etc., are all just as left-leaning as the Hollywood "noterati."

[ShineOn1]

ShineOn1
-don't like it , don't use it (go nmdc)
-don't like it, it's free! bugger off!
-don't like it, make something yourself (yaya blabla you work 14 hours a day, so? (still 10 hours left)

Yada yada bla bla bla, bugger off yourself.

Further more I see your point taken that you don't like arne to take side of the people wanting peace caus you wan't to bomb the hell outta iraq 'n stuff.. well feck that...

Whatever. It's not the opinion, it's the venue. I guess you still have a few years before you get past primer reading comprehension.

If saddam should go then it's the region and the country itself and maybe even the UN that have the right and ability to remvoe him from his seat, not the us and no other country on it's own has that right to do so!

The country of Iraq itself was well prepared over a decade ago to oust Saddam. The US was prepared to support them in their endeavor. (endeavour to you non-US folks) The UN stopped the US from supporting the Iraqi revolution, and I am ashamed that we listened to the UN.

//Spykie's 2 cents

'bout all it's worth...

[ShineOn1]

PEACE IS always POSITIVE!

Yes, and Neville Chamberlain declared "peace in our time" after appeasing Hitler's Nazi regime... just before all hell broke loose. Didn't millions of people die as a price for Chamberlain's "peace?"

So should we press for "peace at any cost?" Or should we bend over and accept "peace at any price?"

I'm not going to hold my ankles because you want to put daisies in rifle barrels...

[ShineOn1]

Now flame me if i'm wrong but aren't you being a total hypocrite, your not in any way upset with the fact that there are political views in this software, but actually you are upset that these views conflict with your own political views

Not so. I'd be uspet to download any "new bugfixed version" of anything to find anyone using it as a podium for their opinion rather that as an actual bugfixed version,

...if this version had an american flag proudly waving in the loading screen, or was as you call it a 'Sadaam stop killing your own people edition' (off the beaten track your an idiot because saddaam's killing his own people with the express help of the US and UK vetoed sanctions against iraq, and before the sanctions Iraq was one of the healthiest and most well fed developing nations in the world) you wouldn't complain at all

I don't care for a "raving patriot" edition either. A "Saddam stop killing your own people edition" would be just as useless. Calling me an idiot for recognizing the facts rather than reacting to the propaganda is your own display of idiocy. What sanctions did the US and UK veto that would have helped the Iraqi people? The sanctions are UN sanctions, and Saddam has been denying his people the food and supplies that were provided for in the UN sanctions.

sure at first i was a bit queesy over the implications of software and politics being meshed together in such an outright way, but then i came to the conclusion that firstly free quality software is a political statement in and of itself- and it's not an 'american' or 'capitalistic' statement at that, this is the product of the creator and he has the right to use it to his own purpose, whether that be to install adware, bitch and moan about his girlfriend, or convey his political opinions to an extroadinarily large amount of people around the world

Free, quality software is a thing to be admired and respected. I disagree that it's a thing to be abused to install adware - an abomination in and of itself. I also disagree that it remains quality software if the author uses it to bitch and moan about his girlfreind. Again, a better subject for a freakin' AOL chat room.

...and we have the right to disagree with him, not download his program even flame him on his own forum, but screw us if we think that we have the right as people who are benefitting from the generosity of anothers hard and (comparitively) thankless labours to deny them their right to to make THEIR program do and say what they want it to do.

.

I probably wouldn't have reacted as I did had the "announcement" of a "new, bugfixed" version had a disclaimer that it also contained slanderous political opinion. I just wouldn't have downloaded it in the first place - which, if you think about it, wasted my time and bandwidth. So regardless of how loudly you or anyone else says "if you don't like it, don't download it" you're wrong. There is a causation problem with that statement. If I like 0.231, and don't know until after downloading it that 0.232 has relatively no bugfixes but adds crap that has nothing to do with the DC community, why should you piss and moan at me for downloading it in the first place, and complaining in the second place? I thought programming required logical thinking...

Also, this is not flaming Arne. It's complaining to him. If I was flaming him, I'd baselessly call him an idiot, like you did to me. He's not an idiot, he's an asset.

(p.s. Look up "asset" in the dictionary - I didn't call Arne an ass. )

[ShineOn1]

Hey dude, if you don't want the software, then don't friggin download it. He's giving his work away for free and you're bitching about how he presents it. Well, get a clue. He can do whatever he wants with HIS software, and if you don't like it, go jump in a lake. You have no place here.

Jw

Bite me. You're a friggin' moron that can't even form a cogent argument. All you can do is flame me.

Maybe I'll write a branch of DC++ that declares that Negedrazzil is a freakin' idiot, and make sure I give it away for free. Then if you don't like it, you can go jump in a lake. After all, it's MY software and I can do what I want with it...

Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

[yilard]

Yes, and Neville Chamberlain declared "peace in our time" after appeasing Hitler's Nazi regime... just before all hell broke loose. Didn't millions of people die as a price for Chamberlain's "peace?"

Fine, and Saddam is going to conquer the whole world tomorrow. Maybe he would order a bombing raid using flying carpets, because these are missed by weapons inspectors.

Chamberlain and other Western politicians appeased Hitler's regime, because they thought they can make a deal with him. Just as Stalin had. To be more specific they tried to exchange safety of their homelands for giving Czechoslovakia and Poland (partially) to Hitler's hands.

They underestimated madman with overwhelming military power in his hands. Nothing like that is going to happen now. Free world has enough experiences with violence of nation against nation. We don't need US weapons... At least not now...

[ShineOn1]

You have failed to give any reasons what so ever as to why a software program is a not a creation equal to, say, a painting or a piece of text such as an article. While I like seeing people expressing their opinions, I can't comment on them other than to say, "well, we have a difference of opinion". A question I'd like to know the answer to is why games might be different from a word processor, or a file sharing tool in your opinion?

I did not say that a programmer's efforts never result in works of art. People without talent can slap paint on a canvas - that doesn't give it artistic value. Writers of articles can definitely be artistic in their prose, but a lot of hack writers churn out columns that couldn't be classified as art. People expressing political opinions in "art" often become slotted into the low-class section of the gallery. People that write opinion columns are expected to express opinions in their columns by definition, whether it's done with a flair or a dull pencil.

The reference to game software is that it necessarily tells a story. That story can have political viewpoints without the software being looked upon in any lesser way.

Word processing software must be neutral. If the programmer's political opinions are expressed within the software, it won't be used for very long, because it will be OK with some people but piss off many others, simply because it doesn't belong there.

File sharing software is essentially an enabling tool, like a word-processor. Not a direct mode of entertainment like a game, movie, whatever.

Did I explain clearly enough?

By the by, I do consider a software program (the code itself, I mean) as something equal in value to a painting, an article and the design of a car, as it requires transpiration and inspiration just as any other thing worth doing.

There is a difference between value and integrity. How you rate something's value should have no effect on the degree to which you place value on integrity.

[Seven_of_Nine]

I too was surprised and insulted to see that the (supposedly intelligent) programmer had added irrelevant "features" to the latest version of DC++. It makes me wonder if there are other irrelevant features in the program, and I have now downloaded the source code. However, I do not have the compiler, so I cannot just make another version without political propaganda.

In short, Arne, what you have done is not helpful in any way. You have your right to free expression (in Sweden, I think) - but please take it elsewhere! (and out of the next version of DC++)

Respectfully,
7/9

[GargoyleMT]

Please do not feed the trolls

[sarf]

I did not say that a programmer's efforts never result in works of art. People without talent can slap paint on a canvas - that doesn't give it artistic value. Writers of articles can definitely be artistic in their prose, but a lot of hack writers churn out columns that couldn't be classified as art. People expressing political opinions in "art" often become slotted into the low-class section of the gallery. People that write opinion columns are expected to express opinions in their columns by definition, whether it's done with a flair or a dull pencil.

So, in essence, what you are saying is that something only becomes "art" when it is "good enough" according to some external criteria decided in this instance by you?
Hmm... I must admit that I'd like to say that making installations with human excrements is not art in my opinion, but since the people who decided what art is decides that all by themselves (and partially based on titles/education but mainly on previous works of art), I herefore declare all code to be works of art (including all Microsoft products, unfortunately) and thus they can express whatever views they want - political or otherwise - for as long as they wish. In no way do I intend to protect them from prosecution, however. This do I, Bodhisattva K, Interpeter of the Holy Sarf, POPE of the Church of Eris, declare to be true for as long as I can invoke my papal infallibility.

The reference to game software is that it necessarily tells a story. That story can have political viewpoints without the software being looked upon in any lesser way.

But... what's to make every game a work of art when other software isn't? Hmm? Who's to decide?

Word processing software must be neutral. If the programmer's political opinions are expressed within the software, it won't be used for very long, because it will be OK with some people but piss off many others, simply because it doesn't belong there.

Uhm... so you're saying that "DC++ should not express political views because then some people will not use it"? Nice of you to care for how many people use DC++, but that's something for arnetheduck to decide, don't you think?

File sharing software is essentially an enabling tool, like a word-processor. Not a direct mode of entertainment like a game, movie, whatever.

See, here's what I don't understand. Where is the defining point between a game and a "enabling tool"? Are you trying to do some sort of "functional" division between pieces of software that may require expressing political views and those that don't?
Once again, I must say that I do not like the implications of having someone else decide what I should code and not code, and how I should code it.

Did I explain clearly enough?

Unfortunately, no.

There is a difference between value and integrity. How you rate something's value should have no effect on the degree to which you place value on integrity.

But it does. Always.
You seem to value DC++ less when it expresses the integrity of its author. I do understand that you do not necessarily like what arne has done - I just do not agree with you. Voltaire's famous quote "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." fits right in here - but it should be applied on both sides - even if you do not consider DC++ a valid vehicle for political "propaganda". After all, if the toilet paper you use would start printing "God Hates You" on them, some people would be upset (and sales would probably drop) but the company that made them would have the "right" to do so - and you would have the right to ask them to stop doing so because otherwise they might go bankrupt and not produce their "extra thin, frictionless paper".

Sarf
---
"I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image." - Stephen Hawking

[KILLIRAQ]

The point is simple... anti war protestors are pussies we should round them up and shoot them. You dont see a new version of linux that says peace edition, and it is a free version. The cia clearly pointed out that terrorists hide in iraq... if your against terror, u should be against iraq.. even tho it has less of a direct connection because the cia wont release classified information. Maybe when another terror attack happens and it's funded by middle eastern countries, u will realize how stupid you acted. By the way, i live in SF.. the people showing up at the peace rallies, that are against the war aren't a white majority.. they are chinks, flips, and mexicans... Fucking minorities..

[Marvin]

Well, If your point is to discus about war, the right place is the Off Topic forum... Here you should keep it at a very theoretical level, stating that the creators have no right to do whatever they want with their own creation...

[Jinker]

I respect the views here and both sides of the argument but have to take some exception to the re-writing of history

Yes, and Neville Chamberlain declared "peace in our time" after appeasing Hitler's Nazi regime... just before all hell broke loose. Didn't millions of people die as a price for Chamberlain's "peace?"

When did all hell break loose? Before Germany invaded Austria or after he invaded Poland? And, which Country declared war against Hitler's Nazi regime?

I seem to recall that the UK stood alone against the might of the Third Reich for quite some time before others entered the war.
Millions didn't die as a price for Chamberlain's peace but as a result of War.
Where the hell do you think you get the right to condem someone for trying to avert war?

If someone wants to write a piece of software that makes me think about war and offers me the choice to use or not to use, then I will accept that any day of the week

Maybe, the problem wouldn't exist at all if this had been dealt with 12 years ago? and, who was running the show then?

[zmack]

I too was surprised and insulted to see that the (supposedly intelligent) programmer had added irrelevant "features" to the latest version of DC++. It makes me wonder if there are other irrelevant features in the program, and I have now downloaded the source code. However, I do not have the compiler, so I cannot just make another version without political propaganda.

huh ? you stoned or something ? what arn basically did was insert a splash screen. The content is totally irrelevant, and.. what u're saying is that if smth has a splash screen... it's unquestionably malicious software. *freak* ! Get a clue. Get a degree. Get a compiler. ( lol )

And... well... if u happen not to agree with the splash, or find it utterly offensive... then use something else. If you don't have the brainpower to replace the splash ( and yes, you can do this without actually writing or compiling anything ), then just keep your mouth tightly shut.

_And_ one's political views _do_not_, in any way, influence his intelligence, skill, etc. So, ( once again ) shut up.

__And__ if someone should feel the urge to code a dc client that involves squirrel raping propaganda ( which is _far_ more malicious ) let him do so. It's all about freedom of speech. It's my code, i do what i want with it. I'm not forcing you to use it, so if you don't want to... booger off !

btw... i actually agree with arn and the splash +... bush is a total retard. That doesn't help the us' case

[drgimp]

I won't post any political opinion but rather try to stay on topic.


Was it a smart move by the developer to make the 'peace edition'
and include political opinion?
No.

Is he allowed to do so?
Of Course.

I like how he described it in his changelog...
" -- 0.233 2002-02-24 --
* Back to normal..."

Putting something like that in software that is used by so many people
surely caused floods of "i love you" / "eat a bowl of ...." emails/PM's
instead of "i found a bug" emails/PM's like it SHOULD be.

That's why it isn't wise to express your political agenda in software,
open source or not. That's simply not the place for it.

[Seven_of_Nine]

btw... i actually agree with arn and the splash +... bush is a total retard. That doesn't help the us' case

I think we guessed that much - OMG.

Take a look at Arne's rule/guideline no. 3)

You're nice to the others. Calling people idiots usually says more about yourself than the other person.

After reflecting for a while, maybe you will agree with this too.

This is where to download the cleaned-up version:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfile ... p_id=40287

Respectfully,
Seven of Nine

[MLG]

Thanks for getting rid of the political statement in DC++. It was offensive because it maligned a decent man. Those of you that think that Bush is an idiot are only thinking that because that's what the media wants you to think. It's the same old crap that they did with Reagan. It's tiresome and really surprising that so many intelligent people sing the same tune but don't know the facts.

[bobaxos]

i liked it cause it was funny, and the best part was that people took offense to it. That is the freedom of press and he has the right to do what he wishes. People need to not take offense to every little thing, life is too short. Go worry about something more productive like all these laws (Patriot Act) that take away our freedoms which means that A. Arne wont be able to put comics in his progs and B we wont be able to talk freely online without having to worry about being arrested for our opinions.

[ShineOn1]

Please do not feed the trolls

I had no intention of trolling. That someone else agreed with me, on principle, of the impropriety of the venue Arne chose, does not make me a troll, or Seven of Nine a troll-feeder.

[ShineOn1]

I respect the views here and both sides of the argument but have to take some exception to the re-writing of history ...

When did all hell break loose? Before Germany invaded Austria or after he invaded Poland? And, which Country declared war against Hitler's Nazi regime?

I seem to recall that the UK stood alone against the might of the Third Reich for quite some time before others entered the war.
Millions didn't die as a price for Chamberlain's peace but as a result of War.
Where the hell do you think you get the right to condem someone for trying to avert war?

Now who's re-writing history? It wasn't Chamberlain's England that held the fort (for too long, by themselves) against the 3rd Reich. It was Churchill's England. The catastrophic failure of the appeasement policy helped Churchill gain the PM.

That doesn't excuse the US for "sitting it out" until Pearl Harbor, though. That it took such a blow upside the head to wake up the US is our shame. It would be doubly shameful to wait too long, ever again.

Diplomacy does not have to equal appeasement. There has to be an alternative when diplomacy fails. Where the hell do you think you get the right to condemn someone for trying to avert another Holocaust?

[ShineOn1]

Well, If your point is to discus about war, the right place is the Off Topic forum... Here you should keep it at a very theoretical level, stating that the creators have no right to do whatever they want with their own creation...

Marv - my point was to disagree with the use of Arne's creation as a venue for political opinion.

I have no argument with anyone expressing an opinion. I have not only acknowledged Arne's "right" to mess with his own work, but have exprssed my gratitude to Arne for the work he has done, saying he is "an asset."

I simply, and firnly, disagree with the use of a software tool as a medium for political editorial. I feel that it is, in essence, the author (artiste?) ;=]
introducing intentional "bugs" in his/her software under the guise of "fixing" bugs, just to express an opinion. There are more appropriate methods to express one's opinion. This all started with me issuing an open statement to Arne that I disagreed with his choice. It escalated far beyond my intent.

As was mentioned before, you can start a thread, but you can't control it's direction once it's started. Any political commentary I've posted has been in response to others' reactions. I've tried to stay "on message."

IMO, it would have been equally inappropriate had Arne added a clip of the SouthPark "Osama Bin Laden Has Farty Pants" episode. It still woudn't be appropriate use of the medium. I may have laughed, but I still wouldn't have liked that it was done.

Anarchy has to have its limits in order to keep from degenerating into chaos, and those limits need to be based on honor and integrity. Both personal honor/integrity and the integrity and honor one displays to the world in their work, and what they do with it.

If Arne wants to write a goofy-ass program whose only purpose is to, in an "artistically and esthetically pleasing tour-de-force of programming genius," express his political opinions, he has that right.

He has the right to do what he did, as well. My position, the premise for my original post, is that I disagreed with what he did, for what it does to the integrity of his creation of DC++, and the implication of how such application of "programmer's license" could adversely affect the direction of open-source software.

Too many respondents couldn't look past their own political prejudices far renough to recognize that my point was not war in Iraq, or whether or not George W is a cowboy, or who is smarter than whom.

Either they reacted in knee-jerk fashion, blasting Bush and US foreign policy, or they went ga-ga over Arne's "right" as "an artist" to do whatever he wants with his work of art (or the paint on his siding, or the bumper stickers on his car - one of those, anyway) - especially if they agreed with the opinion he chose to express. A few pinheads said "if you don't like his software, don't download it." like that had any bearing on the subject. That's like the asswipe bigots of the 1960's telling the blacks to "go back to Africa" if they don't like their lot in the US... Takes real genius to come up with such a display of logic.

There is a valid difference of opinion, somewhere, under the crap, that goes to the root of the integrity of open-source software as a creation, an intellectual product, an art form; and whether the "personal integrity" of a programmer should trump the integrity of his/her product for the short-term satisfaction of their need to express their political beliefs. I don't think so. Some of you do. Some agree, at least in part, with my argument. Some don't care about that, they just want to wrap themselves in the flag or put daisies in gun barrels, depending on their political ideology, regardless of the original intent of the post.

Those should go "off-topic." I agree, and apologize for giving into temptation and responding in kind, in this forum.

[ShineOn1]

Sarf -

I couldn't leave this thread without responding one more time to you. I still hold out hope that I can crack through the dried mud that blocks your logic streeams.

It appears - no, I take that back - it is obvious that you pick-and-choose from a person's post only that which you feel you can distort, and then do so, presumably for your own entertainment. It couldn't be for anyone else's entertainment.

If you were truly as stupid as you present yourself, you wouldn't be as clever as you are. You choose very carefully what snippets to comment about, then bend it as far as you can without making a total fool of yourself in your distortion of logic to attempt to "reasonably" come to your offbeat conclusions.

You are truly a troll's troll. You have nothing of value to add to a discussion. All your effort is placed on fomenting discord in order to seem controversial.

If I'm way off in my analysis, then you truly need to see a psychologist to get over your disorders. There is no textbook of the human mind that explains your insistent lack of comprehension without reference to psychosis, unless said lack is presented by the subject intentionally.

Get help.

Shine.

[smitty]

I am an American...I will keep my political views out of this...He can put whatever he wants into HIS program...notice I emphasized HIS...BUSH isn't an idiot...that WILL be proven when it's all over...thanks for DC++ Arne...Anyone who doesn't want the splash screen...this is DC for god sake...download VS .NET and remove it...and quit the political discussion BS...unless you have lived in the country your wanting to put down all you have is hear-say and not facts...

[sarf]

A criminally insane mind such as mine just couldn't stop itself... or something to that effect. Thus, I post yet another response. Whee!

I couldn't leave this thread without responding one more time to you. I still hold out hope that I can crack through the dried mud that blocks your logic streeams.

Good luck in your mission. FYI, I consider the assumption that I have logic streams to be offensive. Just kidding... but since when has logic been of any use to somewhen other than a scientist in physics/mathematics? Everyone else seems to be doing without (and having more fun) so I think I'll take a pass on that nasty logic stuff... I've heard it leads to "truth" and other such fairy-tale locations.

It appears - no, I take that back - it is obvious that you pick-and-choose from a person's post only that which you feel you can distort, and then do so, presumably for your own entertainment. It couldn't be for anyone else'sentertainment.

My, how selfish of me. Of course I pick and choose from the posts of others - it'd be pretty weird to copy and paste the whole thing into my reply, right?

If you were truly as stupid as you present yourself, you wouldn't be as clever as you are. You choose very carefully what snippets to comment about, then bend it as far as you can without making a total fool of yourself in your distortion of logic to attempt to "reasonably" come to your offbeat conclusions.

Hmm... you might be right here. It's called doing "selective quoting" (or if it isn't, it should be ) and I use it to prove my points. You see, it doesn't matter if parts of a post is true, just that some parts are false... or so I heard.

You are truly a troll's troll.

Thanks. Since I am a troll's troll, you are by definition a troll... while I applaud this latest revelation you've apparently had about yourself, don't you think that it is pretty... well... "untactical" to call yourself a troll on forums where trolls are not warmly welcome?

You have nothing of value to add to a discussion. All your effort is placed on fomenting discord in order to seemcontroversial.

Actually, I am controversial. I think the persons I discuss with have ideas/points worth listening too, and even some that might be true and/or relevant. Unfortunately, that does seem to put me in a rather small group of people.

If I'm way off in my analysis, then you truly need to see a psychologist to get over your disorders. There is no textbook of the human mind that explains your insistent lack of comprehension without reference to psychosis, unless said lack is presented by the subject intentionally.

Been there, got the head in a plastic bag to prove it.
What is it that you find that I am not comprehending? I understand your argument. I've stated such. I have an opinion different from yours. I've stated this too. I think that the only thing we can say from now on is "OK, we have different opinions on this - thanks for the discussion and the witty repartee" (that part of the witty repartee can be omitted, if you'd like). This has now been stated. I hope this thread can die in peace, rather than burning to the heavens (or to the top of the topic list).

Get help.

Thank you! See you around on the boards. And just so that you have something to get worked up about - try getting your italic/bold/underline tags in place - it annoys me when I see spaces being underlined.

Several hugs,
Sarf
---
Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.